Rap vs Hip Hop

DJ Jab aka the owner of the Fat Beats record store and indie hip-hop label, explains  his side of the eternal rap vs hip-hop debate:

This is an old argument that haunts Hip Hop. I'm only bringing this up because I got an email from Cornerstone promoting a Hip Hop week on MTV. I went and checked it out, but only saw popular commercial rap artist on it. Where's the Hip Hop! The artist there featuring has some Hip Hop elements in their music, but there not 100% Hip Hop.

I know that, probably everyone who reads this blog is up on what Hip Hop is, but in case you don't. Hip Hop is a culture that was created in the late 1970's to counter the gang violence that was happening in the streets of New York City. Under privileged youth, which were predominantly Black and Hispanic, created a dance style (B-Boying) that came from numerous dances. At the same time, Disc Jockys like Kool Herc, Grand Master Flash and Grand Wizard Theodore, were mixing certain breaks in records that these B-Boys AKA Break-Boys, where Break Dancing comes from, would dance too. During this incredible spectacular, you had Emcees, who host the parties, rapping and shouting out the crowd over these breaks. Graffiti art, which was already bubbling in New York, was incorporated into this growing culture. B-Boys, DJ's and Emcees would have graffiti artist paint something on their jacket, pants, shirts, hats and what ever they were feeling at the time, to show appreciation for the culture. If you would like a deeper explanation of what Hip Hop is, respond to this comment with your questions. I first experienced the culture in the late seventies in the Bronx so I have a fair idea of what Hip Hop is and I definitely know what it isn't, and that's high paid commercial rappers. This 20   years of Hip Hop culture is a lot more than that.

What do ya'll think?

Comments

[Omar de Fati]

The following is the same response I added at DJ Jab's spot. I suppose "I disagree" would have sufficed, but I stopped where it felt right:

Hip Hop, like any successful meme, evolves relative to its enviroment. Introduce New York Hip Hop to Detroiters & the meme mixes with a culture unlike the culture-base it enjoyed in New York. The result is grossly different.

High-paid commercial rappers are an evolved type/result of the Hip Hop meme. The high-paid commercial rapper doesn't represent what Hip Hop is in its entirety anymore than I represent what Humanity is. Yet, in my own gross way, I am still a member of Humanity--despite any disagreement from my rigidly purist neighbors.

[ian]

Can I just chime in to say how much I hate the word Meme?

[Omar de Fati]

Sure. But, why? (why you hate it, not why chime in)

[Wake The Fuck Up, Yo!]

Go back about two weeks on this blog and you'll see some great arguments as to why rap and hip hop are the SAME FUCKING THING, PEOPLE.

[Ross]

The two terms have become interchangable today, people using Rap and Hip-Hop to describe the highly popular form of music which involves verses that are very focused upon rhyme and metaphor spoken over a highly dynamic beat. However, I see a few essential differences between Rap and Hip-Hop which can be traced to the words' connotations.

The word Rap is derived from a speaking style which relies heavily on invective and vitriol and which gave its name to H. Rap Brown for his use of this style. Rap can be very negative and critical and as such is used in the lyrical pissing contests called Rap Battles. Because of their nature, Rap verses are often violent and related to the underworld such as in Gangster Rap. Rap doesnt have to be so pointless and violent though, as it can also lend itself to being useful in social commentary such as in Conscientious Rap used by Talib Kweli or Sage Francis. So Rap, in my eyes, is a more serious and aggresive form of music than its brother Hip-Hop.

The name Hip-Hop has an inherent feeling of bounciness and lightheartedness which is expressed in its music. It still retains the happy attitude of the block parties from which it originated. What I classify as Hip-Hop has an energetic, back and forth rhythm to it which is seen in A Tribe Called Quest and Sugar Hill Gang's music. The topics addressed in Hip-Hop need not have any special aim or ideal to convert the listener to, just a playful intent. I see Snoop Dogg as having become more Hip-Hop as his career progressed, though Eminem has gone from being semi-Hip-Hop to being entirely involved in Rap.

Disclaimer- I have only recently become involved in the Hip-Hop culture (another distinction between the two is that Rap is part of the whole Hip-Hop culture which involves attire, dancing and language, there is no "Rap culture"). I little idea of what it must have been like to be in the emergence of Hip-Hop, as DJ Jab was, being born when NWA's first release was. I am still learning about all of this, and only wanted to render my view on the meanings of these two terms. Please correct me in any way you see fit.

[eric]

Essentially, this is a semantic argument. The traditional meaning of "culture" is being applied to something that does not fit the traditional definition of a culture.

My take on it is this: Hip Hop is cultural, but it is not a culture.

"Rap v. Hip Hop" is not the debate we should be having. If you want to actually get somehwhere, I suggest coming to agreement on the term "culture." Discuss that first, then discuss what to label that culture.

[Hashim]

Eric,
hip-hop is a MUSIC culture, right? Culture is how you dress, how you dance, what you believe about the world. And there are people who dress, dance, and think hip-hop.

There's also a punk rock culture. Also a reggae culture.

[Ross]

Not only how you dress and dance, but how you talk and who you talk to. The language of hip-hop has become a major facet of its culture, as language is a major facet of any culture. Hip-Hop's cultural strength can be seen in the way it has permeated other cultures, with Bling-Bling entering the Oxford English Dictionary and Hip-Hop cultural aspects being adopted by all sorts of people, to whom Hip-Hop would have been alien only a decade ago.

[eric]

I'm not really sure. I think we all agree these music "cultures" are cultural. The traditional definition of culture is that it covers, not just specific groups of individuals, but everyone -- young and old -- who interacts with each other on a daily basis.

If you live in NYC, speak English, DJ/MC/break/graf, and live/work/school with people of different backgrounds... your culture might be thought of as simply New York City culture, as opposed to hip hop culture.

This is merely the semantic side of the issue. Once we start calling a subculture a culture, the term "culture" starts to become meaningless. I am a member of AA, which can dramatically influence a person's lifestyle. But that doesn't mean I consider AA my culture.

In large part, cultures are defined by their isolation and contrast with other cultures. Hip Hop is notable for how it brings people of different cultures together and fuses elements of different cultures. In this regard, I guess hip hop could be seen as anti-culture... it breaks down cultural barriers.

The other aspect is what are the motivations behind pushing for hip hop to be thought of as a distinct, independent, 24-hours-a-day culture? I think a lot of people let their egos get the best of them. Does it really matter if hip hop is thought of as a culture?

I thought hip hop was about subverting "memes," not making rigid ones for people to follow like rule books. That was also the original spirit of punk. Reggae was a lot more fragmented and I don't think you would find such clear delineations with reggae. Reggae is really just a nice catch-all term for Jamaican music.

[eric]

I guess the other thing we can do is distinguish between different levels of culture. For example, people use terms like office culture or workplace culture. Does that mean copyediting is my culture?

Some would say lifestyle is culture. But for me, living in a city like Los Angeles, I still think of culture as those I have almost no ability to interact with, usually because of language or taboos. In many ways, a hip hop head and a punk rocker are very similar. They have a lot of common ground, actually.

[Hashim]

Eric, what "classic" definition of culture are you talking about. Culture is basically shared traits between a group of people. So yeah, their a culture amongst you and your coworkers, and a youth culture, etc.

So yeah, rap (a form of music) is apart of hip-hop (a culture that includes rap as its type of music).

[Omar de Fati]

When people refer to "office culture" they are amplifying the significance of "office politics". So there is your semantics.

I think, no one is trying to structure a genealogy for rap & Hip Hop. Does it matter, relative to this Rap vs Hip Hop argument, which is the parent & the descendant? Which is the culture or subculture? (not that I agree either question is worth asking, in- or outside the debate)

It's ridiculous that always someone insists we camp out with a dictionary & start defining mundane terms.

It boils down to parroting Hashim: Hip Hop is a music culture. In my opinion, the primary driving force behind it, that keeps this music culture alive & propagates it, is its RAP music.

Here's a question: Is member of a culture no longer a member because other practicing the culture dislike the member's cultural role?

[Omar de Fati]

sorry folks. That should read:

Here's a question: Is a member of a culture no longer a member because others practicing the culture dislike the member's cultural role?

[Jay]

I used to hate "meme" too but I've kinda gotten used to it.. it has its place, unlike "blogosphere" which must be destroyed (join the BLOGVILLE revolution, people!).

No time to touch the hip-hop=culture? issue right now, that one's complimacated.

[eric]

Omar... is there any type of music that is not part of a music culture? Is there any human activity that is not cultural?

The way I wipe my ass in the morning is very cultural, no? After all, I do not use a bidet.

The semantical politics of this is important because the message of saying hip hop is a culture is "You non-hiphop people don't belong here." The hiphop-as-culture camp is seeking a monopoly on hip hop authenticity, when in fact the whole notion of hip hop authenticity is bullshit.

Don't underestimate the importance of agreeing upon the terms you use in a discussion. Right here on this very post, it is clear that people have very different ideas about what "hip hop" and "culture" mean.

Again, you can argue with people about whether hip hop is a culture or not. But if you don't agree on the term "culture," there is no common ground.

One of the major revolutions of 20th century philosophy was the view that the harder you look for definitive meanings -- especially of specific words -- the more the entire subjective/objective foundation of language comes into question.

The more we focus on the abstractions of a few terms -- hip hop, culture -- the less likely we are to find significant meaning or relevance.

[Omar de Fati]

Eric,

Yes, there is music that's in no way an aspect of "a [broader] music culture", or of music culture in its broadest sense. It would be difficult to identify it (or them) by name, of course, for that exact reason--it's so obscure it doesn't warrant classification. Maybe it's not even praticed by "a" person.

This question only further invites a discussion over what is or is not "culture". I believe the discussion is ridiculous. We might as well discuss what is a hamburger. I believe a hamburger must have pickles & mustard. Another believes you gotta have a seeded bun, another "hamburger" must be bought & eaten in Philly. So now my crew can't decide where to eat because we don't know what a damned burger is? It's ridiculous!

Wait...that last one is "hoagies", not burgers.

It's great we can identify semantics are significant here. w00h00!! (and it's maybe a mistake diminishing what could be a classic discussion, but that's what I'm feeling). Semantics are significant every time an utterance is, well...uttered. Despite this, we've managed to have this awkward & unnecessary discussion about how discussions ought to be discussed. How is it that one discussion can take place between people (this one we're having ABOUT the term "culture") without moving the "semantic" goal post all over the place, while another discussion USING particular words cannot (e.g. culture, racism, god, love, & if you're Kobe Bryant, rape).

I don't need Wittgenstein or Chomsky (or any philosopher) to tell me what the word "culture" means, or any of the words we've already used to effectively communicate our ideas to each other. Funny how "culture", though rarely confounded or used out of context (in my experience), is often under "semantic" criticism, but the term "semantic", though often confounded with 'word games' & often used out of context, is hardly ever question.

Defintions my differ & none be accurate. All we need is precision. All the semantics of "culture" are precise enough this conversation should not exist. If "culture" must be defined to continue, I suggest we define "semantic" too, or else we won't know why defining "culture" is important. In fact, I want a definition for every term used. Also, I want a definition for every term used to define every term used.

When all the "let's talk semantics" smoke clears, Hip Hop will be a culture, by 1 or many semantics. Rap will be the primary music of Hip Hop, the primary driving force behind its evolution, a cultural practice, & rappers, no matter how much they earn for rapping, will be practicing Hip Hop while rapping. What they do after a long crap is their business & is in my opinion culturally private.

Lastly, anyone who thinks it's "hard" to find definitions for mundane terms must have a difficult time saying "Super Size me" or "gimme that Value Meal #1" at McDonald's. I mean...what is value? I'll tell ya, I'm a fucking pig. I never have to agree with the cashier about the term "super". That would be ridiculous.

[eric]

Good lookin on the Wittgenstein!

This is a discussion about the terms rap and hip hop, right? I mean, if you want to talk about something else... I won't get in your way.

When we see someone breakdance... we call it breakdancing (or "b-boying" ;) ;). When you want a super size... you say super size me. Would I argue this? Specific activities and items are easy to name and few dispute the names (although b-boying is another good example of attempts to control meaning by a small group).

The term hip hop, beyond its use for historical purposes, is a doctrinal term. To legitimately include yourself in the hip hop community, you accept certain rules or guidelines (aka the doctrine). Otherwise you merely believe you are a part of the hip hop community, but you are not.

Much like punk rock, people use these labels because they want to belong to a group, preferably one that is cool and has a mystique.

If you want to go deeper, this debate is really about the extent to which language is shaped by the insecurity of those who seek membership in a subculture.

[Omar de Fati]

All I wanted to do was tell my opinion that rappers are an aspect of Hip Hop, which is itself a culture. Sure, I'll concede for the arguments sake Hip Hop is a subculture.

As I mentioned, I think that point is irrelevant & only evident if you narrow the context of the term "culture's" initial use. If you broaden the term's use, Hip Hop is a culture.

Subculture, culture, does it really matter? Is a subdivision not itself a divided unit? I mean...*there's* the semantics.

Ultimately, we're doing exactly what I thought I would not--defining "culture". You believe it's something one gains admission to. I believe culture identifies things people do similiarly. I believe culture is behavior, which includes ideas.

You distinguish "posers" from legit members of Hip Hop, i.e. people who do Hip Hop. I consider "posers" an important aspect of Hip Hop. Without posers, "keeping it real" doesn't seem quite so real.

I don't think any culture has guidelines. Well, I'll agree there are de facto rules but they fall in the sense that you either do it or you don't do it. And, if you don't, then you're not, as you suggest, a member.

So, let's get right to it. We disagree on the definition of "culture". We can't determine an answer to the initial question as long as either of us insist Hip Hop is a culture. So I withdraw the assertion & concede Hip Hop is not a culture.

The term Hip Hop & Rap, when used to describe a type of music are distinct. M.C. Hammer is not Hip Hop, but Rap. The semantic squabble is now over the term Hip Hop. Well, the term is ambiguious & I don't object to this use at all (although I might object to saying MC Hammer isn't Hip Hop). The only thing that worries me is what to call Common when he goes triple quadruple platinum. Because if he's not Hip Hop because he gets paid, then I'm not Hip Hop...at least not when I am at work. That bothers me.

[eric]

I make no claims as to what culture means. I am simply pointing out that different people use these term to mean different things.

I agree that talking or rhyming over music is rapping. I don't think that is controversial. Therefore, people who rap over beats are rappers.

It seems you are questioning the legitimacy of your own self-identification as a hip hop person. I believe your insecurity has its roots in a craving for authenticity that plagues both artists and audience.

Rap is a technical term. People rap. Hip Hop is a doctrinal term. As KRS-One says, you don't DO hip hop (not that I agree with him).

Foucault is the man on this one. He would suggest we look at the history of the terms, in particular how people are using them and for what purpose. Why use two different terms for the same style of music?

There is a motive behind dividing rap into hip hop and rap, and I believe it has nothing to do with the "precision" of the terms, as you put it. It is basically a hierarchy of insecurity, where the insecurity of the leaders and pioneers (KRS-One, etc) is propagated to the followers. The followers have general insecurities about identity, but quickly adopt more specific insecurities.

[Omar de Fati]

Damn, my sarcasm is that cryptic?

[eric]

i forgot to turn on my sarcasm detector ;)

[Omar de Fati]

That's alright. Fortunately, I had mine.

[KeL_ ViCiOuS]

Actually, to be as anal as you guys are in this argument, communications experts and professionals have begun to shift to the term "Co-culture" because there are indeed several cultures in the world that exist intertwined with one another and not necessarily as a sub grouping of another. Also, just to add my two cents here. I think that Hip Hop is definitely the co-culture or lifestyle and rap is the music. I suppose you could call yourself a hip hop artist but in that case, people could take that for a dj, mc, graf artist, or b-boy...Funny how, at 27 and living in Europe, I still find myself involved in the same arguments I was having with people when I was 14 and living in Chicago!

[Noa]

Quickly, because i'm at work. Hip Hop is to Rap, as Body is to Arm. Point: Rap is a part of Hip Hop.

Hip Hop is a culture (really, by definition) and rap is music. There cannot be a distinction created between Hip Hop Music and rap because rap IS Hip Hop Music. Simple, huh? Party rap (out of refusal to say, commercial, because that criticism is silly), Gangsta rap, neo soul rap are ALL different forms of rap, thus different forms of hip hop music. So yes, Nelly, Lil Jon, etc. are making Hip Hop music, just as much as Rakim and Eric B, Krs-One, and others did (by no means am I drawing a comparison. I am merely stressing that they all make hip hop music).

When it all gets tricky and confusing, keep in mind that rap originated with a Master of Ceremonies (commonly called, Emcee)working along a DJ (today's producer) who sampled disco music and other genres of the 70s to create the sound we associate today with the likes of Kanye West and Diplomats. Both the producer and the emcee gradually became more creative. eventually developing into Dres, Timberlands, Rick Rubins, Jay-zs, Tupacs, and Biggies. So, the rappers who are selling millions now are closest to the true roots of rap, while the ones we tend to respect more (the aforementioned artists and the Nas and Rakims we love) are closer to the derived version of rap.
Y'all take this food for thought and Keep your head up and eyes open...1

[TainoBrigs]

While the terms "rap" and "hip hop" may be interchangeable to most, they are not. Rap is dead, hip hop killed it. Rap has been its own entity since the artform's birth back 30 years ago. If hip hop was the lifestyle then rap was the expression. Now in 2006, rap has been destroyed and distorted by the monetarily-based machine that has swallowed up "hip hop." There are no more emcees. Like the dinosaurs and cavemen of millions of years ago, they are extinct. I can honestly say that less than five entertainers who claim they are hip hop artists, really rap.