Jimi Izreal is an Old Man (and I'm Young)

Jimi has it backwards (no karamo). In his post, "The Problem with Hashim..." he says:

"I don’t like it when the younguns get into the game and try to change the game, like white folks do... Hashim isn’t white, but he’s that arrogant. I admire marvel at that kind of hubris. He’s one of those cats that comes in your house talking loud and spilling beer. I mean, he’s allowed to have any opinion on hip-hop he likes, but when you begin to start kicking opinion as science . . . well, you gotta pump your brakes. Especially when you’re young in the game. Or white. Because you know very little of what you speak, and the more you speak, the more you prove this to be so."

He's talking about my blasphemous series of posts where I clarify the real 4 elements of hip-hop, then argue that if graf must be included then streetball definately should be too. But that's not the real issue; don't focus on that. The larger issue Jimi brings up is the generational gap between the old and young heads in this hip-hop thing.

Jimi is the old head. I'm the young one.

And trust me, there's a gap. How could there not be? Hip-hop is older than I am! Grandmaster Flash probably has kids my age.

Now, Jimi says that second generation fans like me, whos first album purchases were Snoop Dogg and Biggie, are too quick to narrowly define the music culture for ourselves. But Jimi has it backwards. It's really the nostalgic 30+ crowd who are hung up on their ideals that hip-hop is some cultural, even spiritual force that can "change world views about sexism, racism, feminism, homophobia," etc. as Jimi says in his post. Sure, the music can have that power, but it's also less than that (or maybe I should say it's more than that). Hip-hop is also just music, and it makes you dance, and feel stuff, and gives you something to talk about with your friends, and gets you closer to your woman. That's powerful and valuable to me, fo' sho.

And that's what I was trying to prove with my original post about The Elements. Hip-hop is less mysterious and exclusive than what Afrika Bambaataa, KRS-1, and music journalists would have us believe. It's really more flexible and normal than that, and my young friends agree. It's the 40+ guys like DJ Jab (aka Joseph Abajian aka the owner of Fat Beats) who says there's a some difference between hip-hop and rap in order to discredit parts of the music he doesn't like. It's the 50+ heads like Greg Tate who declare hip-hop is dead because it hasn't lived up to it's political potential.

My teenage and 20+ friends are quick to say, "F--k hip-hop. I am hip-hop" Or in other words, why burden the culture with labels, and unreasonable expectations, and narrow descriptions? Keep dancing to the music and you'll understand. Stop singing along, and you'll forget why you even started.

That's not us coming in and "changing the game" as Jimi claims. That's us dealing with reality, unfiltered by the nostalgia that usually clouds the opinions of those who were present way back when (Jay Smooth wrote about this in Hip-hop Love Addiction)

And about me being disrespectful? He's right about that. The longer you've been an "expert on hip-hop", the less I trust your opinion. If you make your money writing about rap, then I'm chin-checking you on the daily (even Eliott Wilson can catch it).

I'm a blogger, remember? An expert amateur. I never wrote for The Source and none of my friends are industry insiders. I've been on TV once, but I wasn't loud and obnoxious enough for them to invite me back. So, you can trust what I say- not because I'm not biased, but because I wear my bias on my sleeve.

If that's the "Problem with Hashim," then I'll own that too. It's also Honey's wonderful problem. And I'm hoping dozens more kids with problems take up this blogging thing to tell us how hip-hop really is for them and their friends.

Comments

[Tego]

Psshhhhhtt. Old man better throw on his parachute pants and pick up a spray can, run around the bronx talking 'bout we brought the party and mind out from the new school dudes. I don't always agree with Hashim (he makes entirely too-many predictions!) but the problems that Jimi has with him I back him on. Blood claart old school dudes rocking the discoteque. Psssshhhhht.

And why does he hate the crackas so much? Like Masta Ace said "Ya'll can keep worryin 'bout the crackas fine/ But that nigga with the nine skin as black as mine"

Blog Beef!

[eric]

If Jimi's definition of hip hop is that "hip hop is life," I'm not sure there is much to discuss.

That said, he did seem to be giving Hashim some fleeting props.

As far as being white and having opinions on hip hop, it could also be argued that an outsider perspective can reveal things unseen by the insider.

I think Hashim's "streetball as element" thing was pretty silly, but I think it highlights some of the arbitrariness of many people's attempts to control the definition of hip hop. If "entrepreneurialism" is part of KRS's definition, then why shouldn't streetball be part of Hashim's? They both seem equally arbitrary and unrelated to the traditional definition that was laid out in the early 1980s.

Either hip hop was defined, or it continues to evolve and be defined. If hip hop was defined, then we should go by the definitions laid out in the early 1980s. If hip hop continues to evolve and be defined, everyone is free to have their own definiton, based on self-identification. Sorry, but that is how language works.

[Dave Park]

I don't know Hashim, but I know we've been at some of the same events and he seems to be a nice guy. With that said, I disagree with a lot of he said his last post about old heads. Hip hop as I once knew it is dead. Or at least on life support. This line by Jay-Z summarizes it for me, "Truthfully, I wanna rhyme like Common Sense. But I did 5 mill I ain’t been rhymin’ like Common since."

For the most part hip hop is now a cheap thrill or cheap entertainment and it's disposable. And I think the points Hashim made actually support this. Hip hop as I now know it is not very different from music from Britney Spears, in fact sometimes it is Britney Spears.

While I don't agree with directing the anger towards Hashim, I can see why the old heads and journalists would be mad at what's become of hip hop. It wasn't just entertainment for these guys. A lot of these guys have been following hip hop from the start before there was any real money in it and it was their livelihood. Taking away someone's livelihood so some rich people, who could give a shit about hip hop, can get richer would make most people heated.

Myself personally, I've come to accept things as they are. They'll never be the same. When I was a kid growing up I was fortunate to have been influenced by songs like "Love's Gonna Getcha" by BDP and "Who Am I" by Big Daddy Kane". Nowadays, the corporate machine is so busy pushing the latest mindless music it's unlikely that kids are going to get much out of "hip hop" outside of a cheap thrill.

[Cal Ulmann]

I guess I can't add a comment because all comments about hip-hop by white people are null and void according to Jimi Izreal.

[Hashim]

so far in the comments of this post no one who is young and Black has disagreed with me. Just so ya'll know...

[Hashim]

Eric, the streetball thing is just as "silly" as graf being in. Which was my point.

[eric]

word to the 3rd, i figured as much.

[M Ceezy]

Jimi Izrael is the same writer who, last month, credited the Beastie Boys with the creation of Gangsta Rap. Young and white indeed.

[huny]

hip hop isn't "just music" to a lot of heads, me included...its not my life either but it most def is more then hot beats and lyrics. so of course heads are gonna be passionate about holding it close and dear; shielding it from those they deem irresponsible in handling it's "image". I may disagree with the seemingly stringent definition some older hip hop heads place on the culture, but I appreciate their passion regardless. I can even use weblogs as an example...me and many other people I could list have been doing this shit for like 5, 6 years now. blogging about hip hop or at least from a hip hop mentality started way before most of yall kats got in the game...only thing thats new about it is it's mainstream appeal and attention. dig the parallel.

regardless, I am pretty certain that one day you'll be the oldhead waxing nostalgic. if not for hip hop, for something else that defined your youth.

love,

20-something

[blkscholar]

All this talk about Hip Hop... just tell me when the next Diplomats tape is coming out. lol but seriously, sometimes the discussion of hip hop gets so academic, it really kills some of the flavor. It's kind of like going into medical detail about what happens when you're in love. I'm not sure it's supposed to be something you define, as long as you enjoy it. But then again, if you're gonna talk about something, it might as well be hip hop. Some of yall cats make it sound like if you weren't listening from the beginning, you ain't a "true" hip hop fan. So what if you think 50 is the greatest, but never heard Rakim? Let's not get too snobby and exclusive with it, ok?

Holla

[Omar de Fati]

Let's see, I'll get my credentials out of the way first. I'm 34, will be 35 at the year's end. I remember breakdancing in the seventh grade back in 83. So that should put me somewhere in there with Jimi.

--Just one more...I remember my first concert, when Run-DMC, PE, Fat Boys, and/or Eric B & Rakim, in whatever combination couldn't sell out the smallest big venue in our city (Cobo Hall).--

But it doesn't. I'm there with Hashim. I think bro has a handle on Hip Hop. That's why I read his blog regularly....

I couldn't finish Jimi's article. "Hip Hop is life...", 'ten years ago whites didn't know dougie fresh...', c'mon...

Jimi, & fans like him, are the same people (my peers) who insisted NWA, and AmeriKKKa's Most, wasn't real Hip Hop (but they sat through the movie Breakin' ten times). They remind me of even older people making me listen to Marvin Gaye as a kid, talking 'bout 'This is real music, son'.

Well fear not young people. Jimi is not representative of all old farts. I can't even sit through another listen of Rapper's Delight (and I loved Eric Sermon, Keith Murray, & Redman's version WAY better), or even The Message. I'm considering vomiting next time Melle Mel shows up with his shirt off on some award show or I gotta sit during another 'travel through time' medley of 'somebody's' oldies but goodies. I'm like, 'okay, okay, okay, dammit, cut it out & send Mike Jones out already'.

Seriously, KRS & Rakim are my two favorite all-time artists. But I don't go around telling 19 year olds, "You gotta listen to Rakim son, You gotta listen to KRS, son".

Wait...I do tell people, "you gotta get those white on white concords fool". That's only because the latest sneakers ain't really Hip Hop.

[obifromsouthlondon]

lol credentials. I'm 34 so does that make me a dinosaur mr hashim? nah. do i view hiphop as a cultural revolution? hell yeah. I did it all from breakdancin' to spray can art (got arrested fucking twice for the love). But I do recognise hiphop is about the music.

Been listening to alot of african hiphop recently and heads over there view their hiphop in the context of what happens around them (diamond trade, wars, HIV, corruption) and see it as a means to change ish. very noble and IMO the true essence of hiphop. But even they recognise you've gotta come with the dope beats and lyrics. gotta move the crowd first.

I'ld go out on a limb and say there are no 4 elements. To Quote (or misquote) Dead Prez "It's bigger than hiphop"

check http://webjay.org/by/chromegat/theafricansoundsproject for some african hiphop. peep and decide

wikid blog mr Hashim. increase the noise and get dope niggas and crackas talking. haters be quiet!!!

[huny]

omar I was with you til you said you wouldn't suggest krs or rakim to a 19 year old...why not? if said 19 year old was serious about hip hop why shouldn't s/he dig in the crates? its not that you can't dig hip hop if you don't own fear of a black planet or radio but I think someone who calls themself a certified fan should at least recognize why those albums are important. I'd suggest coltrane and thelonious monk to a newer jazz fan too.

I dunno, whatever. maybe I am atypical of my age group. my older brother is in his 30's and introduced me to license to ill and raising hell when I was still watching sesame street an shit. yeaaa boyeeeee.

[jimi]

Looks like we got us a blog war, youngster.

Wicked-good work here, Hashim. But you betta listen to your corner . . . and watch for the hook. Response . . . soon come . . . .

[Tego]

I graffed, break-danced and liked hip-hop 2 decades ago? Psshhhht do you old people know how pathetic youold people sound?

[huny]

I don't really grasp the concept that someone in their mid-thirties is "old"...that sounds like something a 12 year old would say.

moreso...so what if they've liked hip hop for 20 years? there are fans of r&b, soul music, jazz, and rock & roll who've been listening to their genre of choice for longer then that and no one calls it pathetic. I chalk it up to loyalty and love for hip hop. the fuck is the big problem with that?

[Tego]

The fact that they've listened to hip-hop for 20 years doesn't make them pathetic, far from it. What makes them sound pathetic is the that because they've been listening to hip-hop longer then me and Hashim, they all of a sudden decide what is and what isn't hip-hop? Hold on, you decided back then, isn't it our turn? Isn't hip-hop an ever changing, ever growing art form that has embraced huge changes over the last 20 years? Why just because we're in our teens and 20's and you're in your 30's and 40's are you any more hip-hop then us? You're not! It's what hip-hop is! Hip-hop is youth, hip-hop is energy, hip-hop is innovation! The "Rules" are standing in the way of progress!

[dave park]

i don't have a problem with the youth and "hip hop", but i definitely disagree with the notion that hip hop is just music or entertainment. in fact those are the words my parents used to tell me when i was younger and still say to me now. they would say it's just music, it's just a hobby.

to me hip hop and music is much more than entertainment or some type of hobby. i enjoy going out drinking and dancing badly to it, but music is also the one thing i'm passionate about so to me it's more than "just music". unfortunately, i do think that hip hop has become more about a cheap thrill than something substantial like it once was.

[Hashim]

Dave, good music is substantial on it's own. Music elevates our quality of life. Music inspires us. Let's establish that first. Then we won't feel the need to add trappings on the music to make it more worthy.

[Zuberi]

Hip Hop to me encompasses many different aspects of Black Culture. I don't think you can really define exactly what it is because it’s constantly changing. From Reggaeton, Grime (in London) to Krunk...everyone should be able to find something.
I personally like it when someone mixes their style and drops a little knowledge in between dope rhymes (Tupac, Ice T and Chuck D) were great at this.
The one thing I do miss about the old days though is the respect that the more positive political rappers were given by the community. There is a place for all the styles of hip hop and we shouldn't always focus on the negative aspects of life.

[Kalvin]

Hashim, I'm a new jack on this site, but I really enjoyed your perspective on things and have to agree. For the record, I break a lot of rules of being a head. I'm 31, White, from Nashvegas, TN, I emcee and have since I was 14. I got into hip hop at the age of 9 in 1984 when my friends brother was playing "Hard Times" by Run DMC. It was more than the beats, it was the fact that my family knew about hard times and I indentified with that. Even then, hip hop was relating to people all over - not just black folks.

I was educated by the likes of Chuck D, Rakim, KRS, and Guru. I've seen hip hop go through a lot and have rejoiced in the high points and despaired through the lows. I understand the nostalgic place that Jimi is coming from, but just like a discussion I had with my boy the other day, MY hip hop experience is no more valid than Li'l Jon's (even if I can't get into his music) and it's no more valid than Hashim's or some 12-year old kid who sneaks to listen to 50 Cent against his parents wishes.

Hip hop has shaped so many of us and it's easy for a lot of us older heads to try and take some "ownership" of hip hop or something, but that's just not a correct view of an ever-evolving art form. While I may strive to create complex rhyme schemes and cater to fans of the deeper stuff, there's nothing wrong with the cat who just wants to move some asses.

[dave park]

Hashim, I agree that music inspires and elevates us. But I don't view my opinions and those of others that feel hip hop is now essentially pop are adding trappings to make it more worthy. I just feel that the majority of what's being labeled hip hop is disposable cheap entertainment. Nowadays, "hip hop" is cool, it's big money and everyone wants a piece. Because of that there are a ton of coporations that don't know anything about it that are now defining it and jumping on the bandwagon. I've always felt hip hop was more substantial than that.

Aside from the Jay-Z line I posted earlier, I was reading this Prince Paul interview today and I thought it was pretty good. Then again like Jay he's an old head.

http://www.mvremix.com/urban/interviews/princepaul3.shtml
MVRemix: Last year when De La and The Beatnuts both came out with albums, there was a lot of controversy surrounding the fact that B.E.T. weren't playing their videos - do you have any reaction to that?

Prince Paul: It's not Hip Hop anymore. That's the bottom line. People try and front off with their shows saying, "This is Hip Hop. This is rap, this is real and this is that..." It's Pop music and Pop music is what sells. That's what unfortunately the stations, whether it be radio programming or whether it be video programming, I think that kind of proves it right there. It's unfortunate because it's making the kids who are growing up now think that's what Hip Hop is about. It's funny because when I get reviewed now, a lot of the kids is like "This isn't real Hip Hop! Paul isn't doin' it, he's not real!" I guess if I did have a few T&A and I was up in there with guns, controlling the block, then that'd be real. I guess Bambaataa, when he had that outfit on the Planet Rock wasn't real Hip Hop either. [chuckles] You know, dressed up in all the craziness. It's funny who determines that.

[Tego]

Hey Hasim. Beef selling? Tell the truth, how much have your hits gone up? Coz the comments on your site have gone bananas and shit!

Not that I'm accusing you of anything un-toward........ Hmmmmm.

[Cobb]

As soon as you say that hiphop (or anything) is more than youth fashion for disposable income, then you have to contend with what the rest of the world thinks about it. No you don't get a chance to define anything all to yourself. If it's Life and not just a lifestyle, if its Culture and just not a subculture, then it works like everything else - it is subject to the wisdom, foolishness and judgement of elders.

You are still your parents' children.