More on the Hip-Hop Generation Gap

Prof. Rachel E. Sullivan wonders, "Are Hip Hop's Old Heads Whining Too Much?" A chioce quote:

I have noticed a growing Hip Hop Generation Gap, which really seems to be a divide between the under 25 set of Hip Hop fans and those who have followed the music and movement from its early inception. In fact, some of the most biting criticisms of Hip Hop in recent years have come from those who have been part of the original Hip Hop journalists and artists who first pushed the movement into the pop culture stratosphere. They say that Hip Hop has been overtaken by corporate entities...

Wow, someone else noticed that too? Sounds like stuff I've said over and over and over again.

I wonder how or if the generation gap discussion factors into the hip-hop blogger vs hip-hop journalist debate that seemed to be the other big topic on my site this year.

By the way, I'm 25 and I'm a blogger. Give me a year and a Vibe article and I'll probably stop listening to my G-Unit CD based off "principle".

Comments

[Taryn85]

Harlem,

I think there is a huge divide. I'm a year older than you and I see the disconnect.

I also believe individuals who grew up in New York and observed Hip Hop from its infancy might be a bit more judgemental.

[i'm the skwidawd]

Another reality is that hip hop's target audience is young people. As one gets older, it's natural to branch out and become critical of the puerile tendencies.

[tiv-1]

fact is, no matter young or old. Hip hop
has been taken over to serve corporate ambitions.
It's now counter-revolutionary.

You can no longer say things like "increase the min. wage or I'll burn down the white house."

I'm 33 and I love Hip hop with a passion. The younger generation has fallin into a trap.

The current mission statement in hip hop today is
To protect and admire all the things the rich have in America. Because the rich love hearing from lil' niggas
how cool it is to be like them.

Now I'm not poor and I'm not rich. I live comfortablely in a house of my own with my wife in Brooklyn NYC. and run a consulting firm

Corporate America has taking hip-hop and uses it to release itself from the guilt......
Hip-Hop currently frees rich extreme corporate pigs from
feeling guilty about creating niggas and not educating poor white's. They can now party in The Hamptons and not worry about the DJ spinning "fight the power."
They have taken over Hip-Hop and dumped down the youth in America. Banking on the fact that "Nigga's are scare of REVOLUTION"

one

[Taryn85]

Tiv,

I feel you. I don't want to get started ....

[P-Matik]

That would help support the argument that there was an active movement to make rap as wack and ineffective as it is.

[i'm the skwidawd]

Are we suggesting that Too Short and NWA were targeted at mature, responsible adults?

[Jay Smooth]

Skwidad: Surely not.. but those examples bring us to the (widely held if rarely spoken) theory that it was the rise of the west coast that ruined hip-hop :)

[Taryn85]

Harlem Hash,

I believe that there might be a bigger disconnect with Hip Hoppers who are in their early teens and someone in their mid to late twenties, or early thirties.

Anyone in their mid 20's shouldn't have a problem remembering the rise of the west coast and the whole costal battle. They should vividly remember Pac and Big.

I think the teenagers have a problem identifying what has been labled as the "Golden Age" of rap.

[i'm the skwidawd]

We didn't so much ruin it as simply distill the archetype: lewd, crude, and ready to feud.

[Rachel S]

What do y'all think about the gender aspect of this?

[joe castro]

jay smooth: i've conversed with many dudes about that 'theory'... but i don't think hip hop was 'ruined' (this word gets used loosely as it pertains to hip hop) until everyone (especially the east) started using the commercial west coast formula - simple gangsta-type lyrics and club beats.

i think heads should check out the jaz o interview over at hiphopgame.com

also, anyone else notice how that song 'laffy taffy' is now basically a litmus test in hip hop discussions these days? i think the genereation gap is easily seen when you look at those who like the song, and those who refuse to acknowledge it as hip hop altogether.

[ian]

I know I might set some of y'all off but here goes...

Laffy Taffy, Latoya, Top Billin' - are they REALLY all that different from each other?

I love the so-called Golden Era of hip hop but if everything still sounded like old Tribe, Rakim and Diamond D records today, I'd shoot myself. Things need to move on and progress.

[joe castro]

ian: i feel you on the progression of hip hop, but some of today's stuff falls way short of the direction of progression.

i definitely would not lump 'top billing' in the same category as 'laffy taffy'. 'top billin' was an emcee doing his thing over a beat that still gets sampled to this very day... a testimony to the ageless quality of the song; 'laffy taffy' not so much.

[Hashim]

so much to respond to here...thanks for all the comments.

I'll just say this-

Older heads need to realize that the gap EXISTS and even understand thet their age may be hindering how objectively they see the music, not enhancing it.

If you're a young man in the club then you LOVE "Laffy Taffy" because of how your girl dances when it comes on. However, if you're a man with a daughter old enough to sing along to the lyrics, you must HATE that song.

I'm simplifying my point, but ya'll get what I mean.

[i'm the skwidawd]

I think it's important to see that the exceptional 1% comes to represent and define an era. 99% of artists today are just as wack as back in '89 (when there was just sunshine).

Overall, I think the quality of rap music overall has remained solid to this day. But I definitely agree that we don't have that special 1% anymore. This is old news, but I think the optimism and the sense of possibility was a big part of it. The music had an expansive consciousness. There was a balance between the individual and the group. Rappers still had a little restraint. They were still conscious of their role as representatives of black people and the struggle. Now the attitude is like, "Of course I'm part of the struggle... I'm black."

I also think the audience in the 1980s was looking to rap music to address a wide range of issues. The music had a multi-dimensional social and cultural purpose. But now the music seems to have a much narrower purpose: hedonism and typecasting.

I know this might strike some people the wrong way, but back then I think it was more about being a person, an individual. Now, it's way more about being black in this very self-conscious and superficial way.

I find it ironic that now that a lot of the artistic chains have been lifted, black artists can say anything they want... and yet somehow precisely the opposite is what happens: a lot of rappers seem to be reading from a script on "how to be Black." sorry, i just had to say it.

[ladybug]

actually, you won't stop listening to g-unit based on principle as much as you will see there is more to life then that and that listenin to the same people talking about the same thing all the time is not all the entertaining

but then perhaps they would have changed as well and have somthing new to say

[str8frmjozi]

And much props to you for saying it Skwidawd!

[nOva]

This is no different than our parents criticizing our music back in the 80's when they thought the 60's was the golden age of music. Same shit, different toilet. I don't think anyone should be surprised by this.

And yes, there is a lot of coonery in hip-hop right now.

As far as 'Laffy Taffy' goes, people defend it as being silly and fun, which I don't dispute, but that shit is just simply OFF-KEY.

[Model Minority]

-tiv-1- Are you a man....if So, can I marry you....?????

-Hip Hop Is Corporate-
*yes.

-Will it ever be the same-
No.

-Solution-
Use the corporate structure to REgain hip hop..

I know I am on some spook that sat behind the door 'ish..

-----Where is the Dre-Primo-Marly Marl-King T documentary?
-----Where is the Mc Lyte, Bahamdia, Wueen Latifah, Lauryn, Roxxane Shante documentary?

-----Only we can love hip hop the way the it should be....

I am over this where is my hip hop...I miss my hip hop...there is a gap....WHAT THE EFF ARE YOU GONNA DO ABOUT IT FAM?

Lets build.

_---Lets do them Stop being a nigga T-shirts.
_---$hit...Imma about do me some READIN' AIN'T white T-shirts...-TRUST AND SOME STOP BUSTING RAW T-SHIRTS....Nigg@'s respond to T-shirts....then BLAM....

-----Lets incorporate some nail salons/hat stores and use the cream to open record studios and schools...cuz all we care about are hair styles and tennis shoes----

---Kill the I wish it were '89 malent.
$hit is not productive.
The young bucks have very little sense of history and their analytical skills are not being cultivated.
---And because the Beauty of the Pods we can walk around listen to "Searching"...your everything..that I talk about dream about... all day long...

---Nigg@ get off the internet and go work at a KIPP School. (gogglem'... thas' the solution).

If you like my rant....go to my blog....if you don't like it still go....and I bet I will change your mind....:)

www.modelminority.blogspot.com

[dave park]

hip hop's changed but i definitely wouldn't say it's progressed. regarding an age divide/gap, i definitely think it exists.

regarding the comment that this is no different than "our parents" back in the 80s saying the 60s was the golden age of music. that maybe true but now in 2005 how many people believe that music was better in the 80s. twenty years from now i doubt people will be saying hip hop in the last few years could hold a candle to hip hop from the 90s. guess we'll have to see.

[i'm the skwidawd]

nOva... i was gonna mention that too. i tend to see the change in black music as a big arc, not necessarily an abrupt halt when rap emerged. For me, the bottom line is a sense of civility, legacy, and leadership.

In the 1980s, Black artists were still very conscious of their role as representatives, role models, and descendants of a struggle. But the other thing is that they didn't dwell on the morbid and pathological aspects of blackness. Artists were generally well-rounded with regard to their interests and their outlook. They had a wide range of topics. One of the hallmarks of hip hop was (and is still to a certain extent) drawing from the panopoly of pop culture, not just black culture. They didn't just rap about three items of blackness over and over (I wonder where the stereotypes come from ;)

When I heard an interview with 50 Cent and he's like, "Of course, I'm part of the struggle... I'm black." I'm thinking: this guy is the antithesis of the Civil Rights movement.

[Hashim]

"In the 1980s, Black artists were still very conscious of their role as representatives, role models, and descendants of a struggle. But the other thing is that they didn't dwell on the morbid and pathological aspects of blackness"

Who? Which rappers? Let's name names.

I would be interested in knowing what the top hip-hop singles were from each year in the 80's and analyzing what those songs are about, and the overall "consciousness" of the rapper.

Let me guess- it was mostly party and bullsh-t with sprinkles of positive themed songs, just like it is today.

[i'm the skwidawd]

Biz Markie
Brand Nubian (ok, slightly pathological)
Freestyle Fellowship
Pharcyde
BDP/KRS
Poor Righteous Teachers
Main Source
KMD
Rakim
Public Enemy
De La Soul
A Tribe Called Quest
Ed O.G.
Special Ed
Masta Ace
MC Lyte
Nice & Smooth
Salt N Pepa
Third Bass
X-Clan

Most of these artists were huge. They weren't pushing 50,000 units on Stones Throw. They were selling gold and platinum units. Nowadays you only find that sort of diversity on small independent labels, and those artists don't get major exposure.

Nobody questions the the fact that the party and bullshit element has always been there. But in the 1980s, you had BOTH the party and bullshit element, right alongside other types of experiences and worldviews (and very little all-out nihimilism, pathologies, and fetishes).

Sure, there were thug-types (Kool G Rap, Schooly D, NWA, Ice-T, etc) and dumb-down lyrics, but there was also Afrocentrism, and Native Tongues, and Innercity Griots. There was a range of experience... reflecting the actual range of experience in the community. And let's face it, even NWA sounds like kids stuff when compared with the lyrics of today. Today the lyrics are much less suggestive and a lot less observational.

There was an open market for ideas and worldviews. There wasn't a single "Unit" at the top that seeks to eliminate opposing artists. Who is the new "teacher"? Who is the Public Enemy #1? Who is ushering in a new Daisy Age? Does anyone on the radio still Pick Boogers?

Today, you are either a gangster fetishist, or you are not a gangster fetishist. As Sway and Tech put it "This or That". And when you look at lyrics across the board, it is clear that everyone feels compelled to take a stand, either for or against the fetishism. How many artists feel free to simply ignore it and do their own thing? Not many.

Again, it's about the top 1%. I'm not suggesting that there isn't a diversity amongst independent artists, it's simply that the top 1% that gets beamed out to the world is no longer diverse like it was in the 1980s and early 1990s.

[Hashim]

I notice that a few of the artists on your list subscribe to the 5 Percenter way of thinking- with all it's pseudo science, justified misogyny, and hints of racism.

Poor Diddy and Jay-Z! Their flashy rhymes probably inspired a whole generation of Black and Latino entrepenuers, yet people still yearn for the days of Poor Righteous Teachers!

I also noticed that the most popular artists on your list had the good sense to release catchy singles, following the simple and immutable rules of what makes a hit record.

I would like to see a super-scientific list of who the popular artists were for each year, and rank their level of consciouness with a comparison for what's out today. That would be helpful.

[i'm the skwidawd]

Girl, I'll let you play with the stick.

;)

[Michael Miraflor (dj mirateck)]

This is a good debate, albiet one that is circular and without end. It's interesting and mind-blowing, but at the same time I can't help but shake my head.

Is it really fair to compare the so-called 'Golden Era' to the current era in hip hop? No, absolutely not. You can't isolate any of the plethora of variables that hip hop consists of: beats, artists, political consciousness, radio play-worthiness, exposure, fashion, gulliness, etc, and compare one era to another. Why not? Because these are arguments without answers or winners, like trying to compare sports dynasties in different eras- like which Laker dynasty was better, the 80s Lake Show or the late Shaq era? Debate as you might, it's impossible to say one is better than the other because they played in different times, different circumstances. External, 3rd party, environmental (or whatever you want to call them) factors are different when time moves forward. It's called progress folks. Evolution. Time only marches forward, and something as culturally influential as hip hop should be expected to turn into something that we older heads will eventually find as unfamilar. Crying for the bygone era of Native Tongues will bring you nothing but brooding and heartache.

Once you get emotional about it, you become irrational. Why is everyone bitching and very few being objective? Folks, this is 2005, almost 2006. Accept the fact that hip hop has indeed found a home in Corporate America. There are definite pros and cons. But it IS a fact- learn how to deal with it and embrace it, take ownership of the opportunities that are opening up for all of us.

There are too many haters out there that claim to love hip hop yet trash the new shit like it ain't relevant. You know what? YOU are not relevant. If you've ever said "I don't listen to the radio cause that shit sucks," I really don't know what to say to you. It's almost like dissing your kids when they turn into teenagers cause you don't understand them.

All that hating hurts the culture- how do you expect a kid to take hip hop culture seriously when they hear older heads shitting on what they know and love? Do you REALLY expect kids now to listen to some Golden Era joints and find them inspirational or even relevant? Of course not. Instead of hating, why not drop a little constructive perspective?

It got too much to say so I'll stop here. I'll end with this: In essence we are all cultural anthropologists and have been following this hip hop thing from the start. Sometimes we all gotta take a step back and understand that there are ebbs and flows to this undulating industry- TRUE HEADS have been there from the start, and will contribute to the culture and stick through it.

[i'm the skwidawd]

Ok, back to all seriousness...

I'm not saying the 1980s was better. I, personally, enjoy the hip hop of 2005 more than any other year. I always find something to like every year. To me, new is always good. My favorite album of the year is Sean P.

But back to analysis. Of course all of the artists on my list have their flaws. And I certainly don't espouse 5% philosophy. 5% philosophy was simply something different. It was part of a dialog, it was one option among many. And it at least attempted to address and solve problems, instead of simply seeking personal gain. There was an emphasis on the group and the community.

I think it is simplistic to divide rap into conscious and not-conscious. I would simply suggest looking at the overall range of personalities, characters, philosophies, attitudes, locales. To me, it seems clear that there is an overwhelming emphasis on low-income environments, violence, sex, and making money. Basically, a flimsy depiction of life in the "ghetto".

Violence, sex, and consumerism have been the dominant themes in rap music for over a decade. Violence and sex were NOT the dominant themes of rap in the 1980s. There was no dominant theme in the 1980s. There was a balance of themes.

To expect intellectualism of rap artists is not realistic or appropriate. But to expect only party and bullshit seems complacent and ignorant.

[G Off]

I guess this goes to show that even our beloved hip-hop isn't above the generational gaps that all other parts of culture deal with. We are just more in denial about it.

Back in the day rappers were getting raped by the labels (that hasn't changed for most of them) and there was a big push for empowerment amongst the artists... take control of your music and make your own money off of your talents. Now that some artists have done that and enjoy the fruits of their labor, there is hate from that same generation that taught them to get their own. "All they care about is money and corporate this and that..."

There will always be quality music and there will always be shitty music. Evolution is essential to growth of any kind and I feel that hip-hop has grown beyond anyone's dreams. This causes discomfort for some because they weren't prepared for being on top. It's easy to complain about the most talented artist not getting their due, but what happens when the most talented artist starts running the big label, invests in an NBA team, has their own clothing label, etc? That is the question that we are dealing with.

Also, as far as the music goes, it is similar to the NBA. You get new ideas and styles from different areas and things change, but they change for the better. Do we really think that if everything was still NY focused and there wasn't a Neptunes or Timbaland or OutKast or whomever to be creative and change the game, that we would be as far as we are now?

I'm not saying everything is perfect, it's far from that. But, the culture is bigger than ever and you can't say that for other genre's of music that have come and gone in much less time (grunge anybody?).

Peace.

[Michael Miraflor (dj mirateck)]

skwidawd:

"Violence, sex, and consumerism have been the dominant themes in rap music for over a decade. Violence and sex were NOT the dominant themes of rap in the 1980s. There was no dominant theme in the 1980s. There was a balance of themes."

Are you sure? Are you serious? This sounds like an opinion, not a statement of fact. You must have forgotten about Miami bass music if you think the 80s weren't sexual.

If you can't find balance now, you aren't looking hard enough.

If you're talking about commercial radio or BET and MTV videos- of course, duh, what do you expect on those channels- conscious hip hop?

You all kill me. Seriously.

[i'm the skwidawd]

Of course it's my opinion. And of course I'm talking about BET and MTV. I'm talking about the 1% who reach the 99%, not the 99% who reach the 1%. We're talking about rap's social relevance, and what it means to more than just hardcore fans, right?

KRS-One, Public Enemy, Biz Markie, De La Soul. These were not underground "conscious" emcees, they were bonafied superstars who did sold-out international tours, sold millions of records, and appeared on television and the covers of magazines.

I never said there was no sexual or violent rap in the 1980s. What I said was that they were not the dominant themes.

[Michael Miraflor (dj mirateck)]

And what good did these "bonafied superstars" like KRS-One, Public Enemy, Biz Markie, De La Soul do for their hip hop generation? Did they cause a mass sociopolitical uprising to change the face of government, society, etc, so on and so forth?

NO! They did what current artists do now, they made money and made people wanna dance.

AND they spawned an entire generation of hip hop "heads" that will forever complain that the year 200_ <=(insert current year here) doesn't sound like 1994.

Does no one remember the Teddy Riley sound? God I'm glad that's over!

[i'm the skwidawd]

I don't romanticize about the 1980s and I don't place any expectations on rap artists. I am simply observing and analyzing.

The groups I mentioned may not have started an uprising (since when did music artists start uprisings???). What cannot be argued is that they laid the foundation for contemporary rap music. My question to you is what sort of foundation is being laid today, especially with regard to lyricism. Are we deemphasizing lyricism?

I am not saying this is good or bad. I am simply observing and analyzing.

And it's not exclusive to rap. This same trend can also be seen in Jamaican music after the 1970s.

[Taryn85]

Today's artist may not be as socially concious as artist of the 80s. However, you have to keep in mind that those emcees (80s) only delivered messages that existed in their respective communities and issues that Black people were dealing with holistically.

They discussed racism, police brutality, afrocentrism, drugs, gang violence and whatever the zeitgeist for their time was.

If today's artist appear to be misguided in their lyrical content, it might be a reflection of the Black/African community as a whole.

[i'm the skwidawd]

That is such an important question, with regard to the relationship between the community and the music. I think there is no question that the last 25 years have been difficult for most Black people. And it certainly gets reflected in the music.

But I think it is important to also consider that the audience for rap now includes a large portion of non-black people. And I think contemporary rap doesn't reflect the current state of Black America as it did in the 1980s. But this is really just a feeling, mostly based on the fact that I feel certain personality types are now simply excluded from rap (Biz, Will Smith, etc). Same thing for rock music too, though. There are no David Byrne's, Weird Al's, etc. It's not exclusive the Black community.

Rap artists today don't seem as concerned about constructively and proactively addressing issues within the Black community. It seems like most artists today espouse a defeatist, reactionary approach. (e.g., rap so you don't have to sell crack, or don't trust goldiggin women, etc).

There seems to be so much more insecurity in rap today. 50 Cent is like LL Cool J and Kool G Rap, minus sensitivity and clever wordplay. Sensitivity would risk weakness and wordplay would risk awkwardness. Well, that's my take anyway.

[Xandre]

As lovers of Hip-Hop we focus so much on internal issues within the music, but the content wouldn't be so disturbing if society itself wasn't so disturbing.

The United States is a sick country, and the music is just a reflection of that. Everything we complain about in Hip-Hop are bi-products of capitalism. So how can we blame Hip-Hop if this is all people see?

The bottom line is money, that's why artistic innovation and emphasis on community aren't really priorities if all you need is a danceable club track and people don't absorb lyrical content.

Since most people are either scared of or oblivious to revolution why not ride the corporate ties for all they're worth and finally have artists of color caking and owning their own work?

If anything these music executives and all corporate types are addicted to money, there isn't a grande scheme to destroy Hip-Hop, the police and FBI are busy doing that (this is another matter altogether, and even that is class warfare, not necessarily because of Hip-Hop).

We just need find to find ways to make our respective agendas for our people profitable.

XANDRE

[Gotty™]

Yes, the older generation of hip-hop whines/complains/wants to see change. Why? Because we watched hip-hop struggle for acceptance. We remember how diversity in creativity was a good thing.

Today, everyone seems to either fall into the mode or, when they try to bring something different to the table, they're ostracized and considered "underground" or "backpack". Honestly, all the categorizing started by two of our cultures biggest proponents, but now lacking morals seriously, The Source and other mags.

It makes me feel old when I listen to a mixtape and can't vibe to a song, or when I check for an artist everyone's raving about, I get the album...and I'm left wondering "okay, where's the hot tracks?"

I think it's only natural, the progression that is. Just as our parents speak about that old R&B, we'll speak about rap. And once you dust the chip off your shoulder, it makes it a little easier to listen to, accept and find a way to appreciate the current generation. You can be close-minded & out of touch, or you can try to understand and try to search for what it is our youth finds appealing about the current mix of artists.

[rzob]

This is a great debate...I would fall under the category of being over 25 years old. I'm not going to try and debate how music was better in the past than it is now. Granted I do have a soft spot for the older music. The music spectrum has changed but it is something that has to happen. We can't expect the music not to evolved. With this evolution some people might like it while other won't. It's just a matter of opinions. Is anybody right or wrong? No that's the beauty of hip hop there is something for everybody. As we get older as great as the club songs, and gangsta songs are we can't always relate to them as much. As I got my business degree, started working in corporate American and got married I noticed that my taste in hip hop was slowly changing. It wasn't that I was hating on hip hop. I just noticed that I became more demanding of the music I listened to. I noticed that I didn't want to be the first to cop the newest album or concert tickets. Not because I was hating on hip hop...my mind was just more preoccupied with everyday responsibilities. Unfortunately there isn't too many hip hop artist that talk about issues that most 30 and over people go through. The hip hop game caters to the population of ages 12-25. So a lot of the topics that are discussed in hip hop music I've already lived. As I mentioned earlier that doesn't mean I don't like it. However as I get older I can relate to it less. In 10 years the music of today will be nostalgic to somebody that is currently passionate about it today. Just like the music from 1985 to 2000 is to me. I'm not saying the the music I listened to back in the day is better than it is today. Some of it could be but not all of it. I guess to conclude my thought...I'll say this. The music I grew up listening is great, special, influential because of this....when I think back to my younger days hip hop plays like a soundtrack to my life. Being at a certain party, a get together with friends. Kicking it with that special girl...being hurt by that special girl. Going to a new place...losing a homie. Those are the things that the old hip hop songs bring to my mind when I hear them. That's what makes those old songs great to me. That's why it's hard to debate what's better, because even if Young MC might not be as good as Kanye...That Young MC song Bust a Move will always bring back memories of dancing with that cute girl at that party my freshman year in high school...

My only wish is that one day classic hip hop will be seen and respected like classic rock....

[martin]

hello everyone...society crumbles along with its morals...regardless of technological achievements...a spectacular beat is nothing without memories..a dope lyric only can prompt a rewind...and the golden age of hip- hop represented a last desperate plea from minority for social reform...we failed..we make money...we suffer..educate and save those you can....c-ya.

[martin]

hello everyone...society crumbles along with its morals...regardless of technological achievements...a spectacular beat is nothing without memories..a dope lyric only can prompt a rewind...and the golden age of hip- hop represented a last desperate plea from minority for social reform...we failed..we make money...we suffer..educate and save those you can....c-ya.

[martin]

oh..and rzob..they only listen..generally..to classic rap back so far as the 2-pac days..luckilly..he is an excellent bridge.